ASOIAF University

awomanongont: notsosilentsister: I could absolutely see the series ending in some first baby-steps...

Sat, 18 May 2013 17:45:27 -0700

notsosilentsister:

I could absolutely see the series ending in some first baby-steps towards constitutional monarchy. There might well still be something like the Iron Throne - not as we know it in its current glory, but some institution that draws its legitimacy from this tradition, albeit greatly reduced in its powers - but there might also be some Magna Charta/Bill of Rights-type deal paving the way to constitutional monarchy. And once you have a proper House of Lords which can vote on the important stuff, you can start dreaming about a House of Commons. Introduce the notion of suffrage and the moral arc of history will hopefully bend towards its expansion. The Dream of Spring won’t quite get us there, but a dream is a start.

All we need now is a new King weak/enlightened enough to be bullied/convinced to sign a Bill of Rights. Luckily, you don’t have to reach very far to find parallels between the situation that led to the historical Bill of Rights and the situation as it’s shaping up in Westeros. The Bill of Rights came into being, when some disgruntled English aristocrats wanted to get rid of their catholic-loving Stuart-King because of the threat of a catholic heir. They supported an invasion of William of Orange married to the Stuart King’s conveniently non-catholic daughter Mary. But of course, with William and Mary not having the strongest of claims, their allies had some leeway to dictate the terms and, the narrowly averted threat of the Catholic-heir fresh on their minds, they had a big incentive to exploit that advantage and have it set in stone.

Aegon could well be Westeros’ William of Orange - the foreign invader with a tenuous claim to the throne welcomed by the disatisfied subjects. Alas, is his claim weak enough to make him sign a bill of rights? Well, his military might could be weak enough…. then again, I don’t think Aegon will be endgame. But once, such a document is set up, things often develop a dynamic of their own.

The British were ushered towards democracy by their fear of Catholicism. For the Westerosi, it might be the fear of Rhollorism that does the trick.

The trouble with this parallel (while I do kind of like the basic idea) is that the Glorious Revolution took place in 1689. ASOIAF takes place in a society that’s roughly at the level of the thirteenth or fourteenth century - at least two hundred years BEFORE the Glorious Revolution, barely a few decades after the Magna Carta, before the Renaissance, before the Civil War, before the prosperity of trade and diplomacy and the fifty-year reign of a ruler like Elizabeth I (who was always REALLY CAREFUL not to start wars with people because they were so fucking expensive) allowed the slow but steady rise of educated middle classes -

Basically, societal conditions in ASOIAF are SHIT for anything like a democratic revolution to take place. You’ve got no widespread education - no prosperity or security among the population in general. Democratic revolutions got started two ways: either you fucked up so hard and so long that you ended up in France in 1789 or Russia in 1917, or you allowed the steady rise of the middle classes and widespread education (and let’s be clear, the educated middle classes were INSTRUMENTAL in the French revolution, it wasn’t all people in rags running around with pitchforks shouting for bread, and equally instrumental in the Bolshevik revolution, the reason Russian reforms took so long and were so fucked up in the 19th century was because the aristocrats retained HUGE control over a HUGE part of the population - the serfs who worked the land - that the middle classes rising in the cities simply couldn’t compete with) to the point where you HAD to grant some sort of political rights to those people or be faced with, well, widespread violent revolt (which is basically what happened in Britain). Hell, Westeros doesn’t even have a Magna Carta.

Now Magna Carta is commonly misunderstood to be a kind of FREEDOM!!!!! AND CAKE!!!! AND A HARD-BOILED EGG!!!!!!!! type document that laid the cornerstone for England’s democracy as far back as 1215. This is historical myth-making and general bollocks of the worst kind. The Magna Carta was a document drawn up by the barons - ie the magnates of the kingdom, the real-life equivalent of the great families of Westeros - meant to protect THEIR sorry arses, not the people’s.

At the moment the barons in Westeros are too busy trying to plant their arses on the actual throne itself.

The thing is that documents like the Magna Carta or the Bill of Rights aren’t born out of periods of instability and religious discontent. They’re primarily born out of baronial/parliamentary resistance to the rule of an otherwise strong and legitimate king. They are instruments of defence, not cornerstones for a new order in the kingdom.

(Also the Glorious Revolution was kiiiiiind of the high point of a process that had been ongoing since, well, the Magna Carta in that Parliament had been arguing with five hundred years’ worth of Kings over how much power it had and in 1689 PARLIAMENT FINALLY WON. That’s a lot of development, both in legal and societal terms, that Westeros simply doesn’t have.)

(Also TAXES. The most important concession ever wrung out of any King or Queen of England was that they weren’t permitted to raise taxes without consent of Parliament. On that concession is the constitutional monarchy founded. We have no indication in the books that taxes are an issue in King’s Landing. Or in fact anywhere else in the country. The Lannisters shit gold, they don’t need your stinking taxes….?)

I’m also somewhat hesitant about the religious parallel. In 1689 England had been fighting over the Catholic questions for 150 years. There was over a century’s worth of oppression and fear and civil war and Star Chambers behind the Glorious Revolution - for example, making the Anglican Church the religion of the State meant that misdemeanours which had hitherto been considered minor heresy and usually dealt with by the Church now became, by default, something like lèse majesté. Because to insult the Church was now the same as insulting the State, and if you insulted the State you were insulting the King or Queen.

A hundred and fifty years of vicious built-up religious resentment on both sides. I’d be surprised if GRRM can engineer Westeros to reach the same boiling point in less than a decade.

I think if we’re going to have any kind of constitutional monarchy at the end of the books, it’s going to be a Magna Carta type deal, probably in response to the great families of Westeros demanding some kind of surety for their families and inheritance from a descendant of Mad King Aerys.

They’d start a proper fight over it, but who’s gonna argue with three fire-breathing dragons?

sapiosexual-dyke: As an avid shipper, you’re probably not going to expect me to be objective about...

Sat, 18 May 2013 17:39:00 -0700

sapiosexual-dyke:

As an avid shipper, you’re probably not going to expect me to be objective about the scenes from the last episode, The Bear and Maiden Fair. If you’ve been following me since my self-imposed Sanrion advocacy where only Sansa and Tyrion-related posts will occupy my tumblog until their long-awaited nuptials happen, you should know by now that these characters are my utmost favorite of the book/show series, and their pairing is a ship I will sail to the edge of the world with. Nevertheless, I’m aware of the circumstances surrounding their marriage which are hardly pleasant for either of them. They have also suffered so much injury in the previous seasons which is primarily what hinders them from truly connecting. There is a history of bloodshed between their families too, and their arranged marriage is a political move from Tywin Lannister to secure the North if/when Robb Stark has fallen in battle.

I understand the point of views from many non-book readers about this engagement, and the variety of reactions from both Sansa loyalists/haters and Tyrion loyalists/haters who do not approve that such an alliance should happen. But there a number of book fans who are also a fan of this complex pairing who have always known this day of reckoning is coming but have realistic expectations and reactions about what will come to pass between Tyrion and Sansa.

Let me just state for the record that we shippers ship them the way we do not because it’s a happily-ever-after situation. In marrying these two, their insecurities, fears and dreams will not diminish; they will not eagerly fall in love with each other or conveniently decide to be supportive of the one another’s plight as soon as they develop genuine feelings in the long run. It’s far from that. Sure, we wanted these things for Sansa and Tyrion—of all the characters they were the only ones who actively pursue love because they both believe so desperately that they deserve it. They cope with people’s prejudices through sheer will and tenacity; Sansa clings onto hope while Tyrion utilizes his wits, and both want nothing more but to restore a sense of completeness—and in a mirror-effect sort of way, they seem utterly perfect for each other. At least that’s how we shippers believe it. With the events that surround them for now, they’re not ready to be together just yet. There are so many experiences to learn and grow from in either side, and it is our dream that they will overcome the obstacles and get a second chance someday.

For now, we keep our faith in anticipation of the actual nuptials to occur but we are also content to talk about what happened in the recent episode. Let me start first with Sansa and Margaery’s girl talk.

The Tyrell women are seriously ahead of their time. Proving that she’s indeed the granddaughter of the Queen of Thorns, Margaery explicitly educates Sansa about sexual attraction and compatibility. For Sansa, the wedding itself is bad enough but she is even more terrified with the bedding that comes after. I’d like to add my perspective about the fact that she seems more than reluctant to sleep with Tyrion not only because he is an enemy of the family, but because he’s a dwarf—and that’s perfectly understandable. It’s certainly awkward. I would like to agree with Margaery when she said that Tyrion is rather good looking even with a scar—scratch that—especially with a scar. But being thirteen/fourteen years old, Sansa still perceives romantic attraction superficially. She starts to compare Tyrion to Loras who is her ideal of male perfection, apparently. But thanks to Margaery’s wisdom, she comes up with a delightful list on what women find attractive (and the casual way she throws in “pretty girls” was superb), and Sansa looks quite receptive to this new knowledge.She fancies Margaery to be her sister after all, and I think after their discussion, Sansa has began to consider Tyrion in a better light especially since Margaery seems to hint that Tyrion being ‘experienced’ is a good thing in the marriage bed. Putting aside my being a shipper, this conversation wasn’t offensive for me at all. I’m not sure what other people think but I’ve read somewhere in twitter that Margaery and Sansa shouldn’t talk about matters like that. But hey, girls DO TALK ABOUT SEX but I find that when we do, emotional compatibility is also discussed.

And this brings me to my second point: When Margaery asked if Tyrion is kind to her, Sansa answered that “he tried”.

It was an appropriate response. It may be argued that Sansa is already honest with Margaery at this point, but I think Sansa still withholds many things from her surrogate sister, particularly about how she feels about things she is unsure about. I know for a fact she is grateful to Tyrion for the kindness she eventually acknowledges. Besides, that statement didn’t mean “He tried to be kind but it’s not good enough” as most viewers seem to interpret it. I believe what she meant was: “He tried to be kind even when he didn’t have to be.” That’s how I interpreted it and it makes more sense because Sansa isn’t a snob/dumb bitch as many of her haters like to argue.

And as a parallel to that scene, Tyrion and Bronn have a man talk about the situation too. I’d like to state for the record that I’m a Bronnthusiast/Jeromaniac for 2 years now, and bringing him in for this episode just so I could watch him drink and get sassy with Tyrion makes me very happy already. While Sansa doesn’t want to marry/have sex with Tyrion because he’s a dwarf, Tyrion’s reason is because she’s a ~~tal~~l child. Understandable as well, but Bronn was quick to counter that he wants to fuck Sansa but he just won’t admit it. It’s a fair assessment from a crass, insolent sellsword who always seems to enjoy poking fun at Tyrion all the time. But the look on Tyrion’s face says it all. He dismisses that as an evil notion but I know for a fact that there’s a tiny portion of him that does lust after Sansa. And there’s nothing gross about that because it’s normal and you haters know it. You can hate and be disgusted about Tyrion wanting Sansa but not about Sandor wanting Sansa or Drogo fucking Daenerys (who is thirteen in the books)? That to me is prejudicial bias. Let’s not sugarcoat it. Sex between Tyrion and Sansa is disgusting to most of you because he’s a dwarf.

Well, I say to you what Margaery said to Sansa: you can never know unless you try. I’m not saying we should all go have sex with a dwarf now. What I meant is that it’s already established that Tyrion is a decent man despite the errors he has committed because he is kind to people who are mistreated like he was, and in that sense, marrying/having sex with him is not the worst thing that could happen to Sansa. And to think that most of you are Sansa haters too, but you’re not above her at all if you share her superficial outlook about having sex with a dwarf. I just feel like getting this message across because eventually, SanSan and Drogo/Daenerys in spite of the same gray area that Sanrion are going through now, gets approved by many shippers by now. So it baffles me that one of the reasons Sanrion is being dismissed is because she’s dumb/innocent or he’s one’s favorite badass/dwarf.

There aren’t a lot of fans of BOTH Sansa and Tyrion and who also ship them, and those who do are usually book readers like me who have seen the complexity and possibility of this pairing for ourselves. I just hope D&D will treat with their relationship with same sensitivity and empathy like GRMM did during their POVs reflective of each other. I look forward to next Sunday because watching Dinklage and Turner interact as Tyrion and Sansa makes my heart flutter and I know there are many more scenes between them that I can talk about with fellow shippers once more :)

The Role of Prophecy in ASOIAF - Melisandre, Cersei, Daenerys

Sat, 18 May 2013 03:22:00 -0700

notsosilentsister:

The only character I can think of whose actions are really mainly guided by prophesies is Melisandre and to a certain degree Stannis, in as far as he’s influenced by her. But prophesies are hardly his sole motivation – he has unfavorite-child issues and he would have found it hard to bend to Renly or someone else, prophesy or not.

Cersei’s paranoia is also fuelled quite a bit by prophesy, but then again, you don’t need doom-ladden prophesies do feel somewhat unsafe in Cersei’s situation, do you? Again, it contributes to her behaviour, but it just affirms and enforces something that would be there anyway.

And Dany? Well, she’s certainly the object of many prophesies but have they really guided her actions so far? Dany wants the iron throne for tribal reason, she wants to avenge her family, she wants to get back what once was hers. This sense of entitlement is the only thing her brother ever gave her – she starts out with nothing but her name and of course she clings to it and every right it should entail in her opinion. Dany already believes that she is destined to rule Westeros by virtue of being born a Targaryen. Just as with Stannis, the prophesy is only the cherry on top. Dany was longing for a conquest of Westeros well before anything was said about princes that were promised and stuff.

In fact, Dany’s emerging theme with regard to prophesies is that she develops quite a habit of apparently thwarting them (or at least their more popular, more literal interpretations). If I remember correctly, we did get the Mirri-Marz-Durr prophesy. If it were ever to be taken literally, Dany actually thwarted it by mercy-killing Drogo, thus disabling his prophesied return. (At any rate, her action in this case is markedly not guided by prophesy). She also accidentally thwarted the Dothraki’s interpretation of the “prince-that-was-promised” prophesy by losing her baby in an attempt to save Drogo with dark magic.

I think we will eventually get Quaith’s “three treasons will you know” prophesy (otherwise, why introduce Quaithe at all?) – this, in fact, does shake Dany quite a bit, but again, no person in her position could afford to be blindly trusting. Apart from occasionally speculating about the identity of her three traitors, Dany does not act based on that prophesy either.

I think that Dany’s contribution to the prophesy theme will be self-fulfilling prophesy again, but this time in a more positive sense. Dany tends to fullfill her prophesies accidently. (Many have mounted fairly convincing arguments that Mirri-Marz-Dur’s prophesy has come true by now – only the Drogo that came back was not the husband, but the dragon). Many of the actions she takes seem to take her away from the path of her destiny – trying to salvage the clusterf*ck of Meereen for instance – and she gets a lot of flak for that from potential allies as well as readers. Dany stays in Meereen because of her conscience, because of some peculiar notion that power comes with responsibility (that might be paternalistic, but I still find some merit in that idea), because she realized that freeing the slaves entailed consequences she had not really thought through and it would violate her sense of integrity to run away from the mess she made - not because some dubious prophesy tells her to. For some reason most people lost a lot of respect for her because of that.

But my prophesy is that disregarding prophesies and just following your own sense of integrity will turn out to be the best strategy to actually meet your destiny – for Dany as well as for Jon. I hope that Meereen will turn out to be more than just a page-filling detour to pad the series and teach Dany not to veer from the path of destiny ever again. My theory is that Dany’s anti-slavery agenda – not thrust upon her by any prophesy at all, but merely something that seems close to her own heart – will win her important allies – the Faceless Men, the Red Priests of RHollor maybe, or powers as of yet unrevealed – that will be integral for her defeat of the Others (and I think that this is Dany’s true destiny, not necessarily sitting the Iron Throne). I guess that’s also a potential meaning for Quaithe’s “To go west you have to go east”-suggestion. Most people take that to mean that Dany has to take the Demon Road along Old Valyria, but it might not just be a question of logistics…To save Westeros, you must first save Meereen.

spasil: I’ve always liked the little detail about Tyrion often needing supporting cushions when he...

Fri, 17 May 2013 08:53:20 -0700

spasil:

I’ve always liked the little detail about Tyrion often needing supporting cushions when he is sitting to prop himself up because (unless I’m reading too much into it) it’s a clear testament to the lack of care/attention he had as a child, which he sorely needed. It’s very common for achondroplastic children to need support due to a weak posture. A good way to combat this is to encourage them to take up a sport that builds up muscle strength, but something which is smooth and not hard on the joints. A common one is swimming or some form of hydrotherapy.

Yes all this exact knowledge is beyond the grasp of maesters, but it would have been apparent from the start that Tyrion lacked muscle strength/definition to maintain a good posture, and I don’t think it would have been beyond them to know that it could have been treated with some form of strength-building activity.

As an adult Tyrion still needs this support, so evidently this did not happen. He was restricted from physical activities from a young age and soon came to believe they were beyond him. Plus it wasn’t really part of his natural interests and he preferred a much more sedentary lifestyle. He can ride a horse, but then of course he has his customised saddle to aid that.

It makes me think that from this lack of care, Tyrion probably developed spinal stenosis, which would explain the occasional spasms in his legs from temporarily losing motor control (something which confused me at first, as it was something I never associated with achondroplasia).

I don’t really know where I’m going with this; I just thought it was interesting.

maidenvault: It’s just so freaking weird to see these consecutive scenes of Sansa and Tyrion...

Fri, 17 May 2013 07:56:45 -0700

maidenvault:

It’s just so freaking weird to see these consecutive scenes of Sansa and Tyrion getting advice and encouragement from their BFFs about the sex they’re going to have to have with each other as if this situation is almost just supposed to be kind of funny and awkward. As if the arrangement of this marriage doesn’t mean that any other life Sansa might have hoped to ever have is over now. As if it doesn’t mean that now she’ll never be able to experience and enjoy having sex with someone she can actually trust, as opposed to a Lannister who regardless of his own moral character is still a Lannister who would reluctantly marry her before giving up what he has by defying his father, and therefore can never entirely have her trust.

And what’s also bothersome is how the conversation between Sansa and Margaery is full of these suggestions that their situations are necessarily comparable just because Margaery will be willingly marrying Joffrey. For Sansa, there can be no “making the best of this” and taking control of her own situation like how Margaery was able to see the advantage in marrying her brother’s gay lover and now knows how to take advantage of the Lannisters because she has a support system and protection from her own family in such a dangerous situation. Canon!Margaery I’d think would appreciate the difference and would probably find some more practical way to comfort her than telling her to try to be open-minded.

Especially since, for fuck sakes, Tyrion is quite understandably not comfortable with this either, even if he is attracted to Sansa. Even ignoring all the other factors that make this conversation ridiculous, is it at all reasonable to put this expectation in Sansa’s mind that Tyrion will totally be on his game with her and just might sweep her off her feet with his legendary skills in the sack? Give me a goddamn break.

It seemed like her advice was supposed to be empowering for Sansa somehow, but it really wasn’t anything that would realistically be of any help for her to hear. Is she supposed to take comfort in the idea of one day having a son who will be heir to Winterfell, which implies the eventual defeat of Robb in the war and the Lannisters assuming control of the North through this marriage? IS SHE SERIOUSLY SUPPOSED TO GIVE A CRAP RIGHT NOW ABOUT WHAT TYRION LANNISTER COULD BE LIKE AS A LOVER? SERIOUSLY??

Which is why it’s so hard to believe that this is a scene GRRM actually wrote himself. Unless it was actually the best he could possibly do with what had been decided in the writers’ room needs to be established in this episode given the direction D&D intend to take this storyline. After all, I’m sure he can only do so much to bandage up their overall catastrophe.

asha greyjoy: token hot feisty pirate chick

Thu, 16 May 2013 20:29:00 -0700

stormdicks:

…Except no, not really at all.

I was listening to another episode of Boiled Leather, and once again they were complaining about how Asha is unrealistic. This time the criticism was that she was like a “stereotypical fantasy warrior woman” and not a believable product of her society, but also that she had stereotypically “feminine” qualities like caution, protectiveness toward family members, and empathy. And somehow that’s bad and boring. Yawn. (Also, this is a bit contradictory—aren’t “stereotypical fantasy warrior women”, like all stereotypical characters, rather one-dimensional?)

I’ve already discussed here why her leadership style and attitude toward her family makes sense given what we know about her upbringing. This time I’m going to discuss why her being a warrior and political leader makes sense and is portrayed “believably.”

Not that I should have to do such a thing—I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone complain that Jaime’s kindness toward Tyrion is “unrealistic” despite Tywin being his only surviving parent. But here we go anyway.

First of all, here’s a whole big honking timeline of women who were involved in medieval warfare. Many of these women had atypical roles in their societies, but they did exist. There was a woman who led an army in the Crusades. And, in a culture more analogous to the Ironborn, there were women warriors among the Vikings. Historical evidence suggests that they were rare (just like among the Ironborn) but there are reports of them in historical records. Just had to get that out of the way.

Asha is not the only woman to work in the crew of a longship. We know that. Moving on.

The Boiled Leather dudes did acknowledge that her high birth does allow her to “get away with” stuff that lowborn women might not. She has both the status and the capital; she doesn’t have to marry and take a job in a village for economic reasons, and it’s just a general fact that nobles can do stuff other people can’t.

As far as how she’s able to get away with what she gets away with while having the unrepentantly sexist Balon Greyjoy as a father, there’s of course the fact that for a long time she was her father’s only living heir, but we do know that even before the loss of Theon, Rodrik and Maron she was playing with axes as well as dolls. Balon might not have approved of this at first. But one thing we can’t forget about Balon is that he despises weakness. He might not have thought it was appropriate for a girl to learn to fight, but once he saw that Asha was an adequate fighter he probably realized that having a daughter who was “strong” by his standards was preferable to a child he considered “weak”. And such a daughter was much preferable as an heir to a weak son. As Aeron thinks, “That was Balon’s blindness; he saw himself in his wild, headstrong daughter, and believed she could succeed him,” (AFFC, “The Prophet)

This doesn’t mean that he believed that all women had the right or capacity to be warriors. He might even have believed that the fact that most women hadn’t taken up arms was proof of their inherent weakness, given the Ironborn’s “only the strong survive” mentality. There’s a proven phenomenon that when people with deeply ingrained prejudices against certain groups encounter members of those groups who defy their stereotypes, they see those individuals as “exceptions”, as the “good ones”, but it doesn’t necessarily change their perceptions of the group as a whole. So Balon’s seeing Asha as “not like other girls” wouldn’t have changed his view on women in general.

Don’t discount Alannys’s influence. All signs suggest she was a tough, outspoken woman during Asha’s childhood, and she might well have defended Asha’s right to do what she wanted. And we don’t really know anything about her older brothers, but they too might have included her in their games or given her something to aspire to or compete with.

After the Greyjoy Rebellion, as we know, Asha effectively became Balon’s heir. Although Theon was the legal heir, evidence in the text suggests that even before he was taken as a hostage he was seen as weak; Aeron Damphair derisively remembers how he openly displayed emotion as a child. So Asha was presumably allowed to do and learn everything a male heir would do. This isn’t unprecedented in history—in the absence of a male heir, women were able to do many things men normally did (we need look no further than Elizabeth I).

And, although Asha herself (mostly) sees no contradiction between her role in society and her gender, there is evidence that Balon views her as a replacement son and not as who she really is, as when he refers to both her and Theon as “my sons”. (I am currently working on another meta about the complicated relationship between Asha and Balon, and the Old Way, but that’s a subject for another time.)

And, unlike a “stereotypical fantasy warrior woman”, Asha does face limitations, many because of her gender. The whole idea of a “Mary Sue” is terribly gendered to begin with, but some of the ideas have merit as signs of poor characterization in characters of all genders—if a character can get away with anything, if a character is constantly rebellious and mouthy to everyone regardless of relative power and the narrative wants you to believe they’re always right, (I can’t really think of any examples in ASOIAF, since every major character has had to answer to someone and has suffered consequences for their choices). But Asha’s character? Not like this at all. She’s not always rebelling. She doesn’t have all the answers. And it’s always clear that she’s functioning within the limitations of an oppressive society despite being an exception in some ways.

First of all, we don’t see what she went through in her early years and what she had to do to gain acceptance. We only see her after she’s been a captain for a number of years.

It is interesting to note that, like the novel’s other two culturally atypical warrior women, Arya and Brienne, she was considered unattractive (at least as a child)—is GRRM suggesting that, like them, Asha adopted a “masculine”-coded role at least at first because of her difficulty fulfilling the requirements of femininity? With Asha, we don’t know, and I hate to think of it purely in terms of “she only did it because she wasn’t pretty”—that reduces the complexity and power of ALL of these women, and the “pretty” ones as well. But the parallels are there.

And, while Asha is accepted as a captain and a leader, eventually she hits an…iron ceiling, shall we say. A Feast for Crows is a novel where both of the female heirs (Asha and Arianne) of autonomous kingdoms have their inheritances called into question, and, unlike Arianne, Asha fails to confirm hers. The Kingsmoot was called in the first place because Aeron refused to acknowledge a law that would allow a woman to sit the Seastone Chair, and he claims that according to the voice of the Drowned God “no woman may rule over us”. It’s likely that whatever the circumstances of Balon’s death, even without Euron claiming the throne, there would have been some challenge to Asha succeeding him.

And don’t forget Asha’s attitude throughout this whole thing. Although she shows some bravado, calling it her “queensmoot”, she acknowledges from the beginning that she doesn’t have nearly enough support and offers to concede to Victarion as long as he accepts her as Hand (which he doesn’t). In her first chapter in ADWD, she admits to herself that she is unlikely to ever become queen. In short, Asha understands her limitations in Ironborn society as well as anyone, and although she makes a good effort, she’s largely resigned herself to trying to minimize the damage. While Balon’s presence limited her in some ways, making her less able to pursue her own course of action, it also allowed her to be an heir—an heir, but never a queen. Ironborn society is so sexist that most of the men in it are willing to ignore the wishes of a revered leader in order to keep a woman off the throne. That’s pretty intense.

We’ll see what happens in the aftermath of Euron’s orgy of destruction, and whether the Ironmen will reevaluate their decision in her favor, but at the moment things don’t look good; her only hope is having the Kingsmoot decision overturned on a technicality.

In conclusion? I think writing Asha off as a “stereotypical hot Viking chick” ignores the subtleties of her character as well as dishonoring the real women who had similar roles. This “hot Viking chick” might be feisty and rebellious at times, and she might have an atypical role for a woman, but her character arc also includes obedience, compromise, doubt, and resignation. She is not a character who functions as though misogyny doesn’t exist. She has been shaped by history and culture, and while she fights against the limitations put upon her, she is never able to transcend them, and certainly never able to ignore them.

Thank you!

Thu, 16 May 2013 17:30:43 -0700

Hi followers!

We recently passed 2000 followers! Welcome, and I just wanted to thank you all for following this blog!

Also, thank you to everyone who submits posts! The ASOIAF fandom on tumblr is very large and the moderators here can’t see every meta post, of course, so we appreciate it when you drop links to specific posts in our submit!

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headtrip-honey: daenerys-theconqueror: let’s stop complaining about Sansa saying “but he’s a...

Thu, 16 May 2013 17:21:35 -0700

headtrip-honey:

daenerys-theconqueror:

let’s stop complaining about Sansa saying “but he’s a dwarf”, because even though in the books she never says something similar, part of her objecting to marry him is about his look, about how ugly he is.
Yes, first of all in the books she openly says she doesn’t want to marry him because he’s a Lannister! but let’s not pretend that his bad look,which includes his dwarfism, isn’t one of the reasons why she objects to marry him.
Besides, GRRM wrote the episode! basically you’re criticizing the man who created all the characters and knows their psyche more than any reader could ever understand.

A few things.

1. No, Tyrion being a dwarf didn’t have much to do with Sansa objecting to marrying him. It did, however, have a lot to do with her not being sexually attracted to him. And that’s okay! People are allowed to NOT be sexually attracted to people. Peter Dinklage is an incredibly handsome man, however book!Tyrion is NOT. (Honestly I’d have trouble being attracted to ANY person COMPLETELY MISSING THEIR NOSE but I guess I’m just shallow.)

Sansa’s first thoughts on hearing that she’s to marry Tyrion:

My claim, she thought, sickened. Dontos the Fool was not so foolish after all; he had seen the truth of it. Sansa backed away from the queen. “I won’t.” I’m to marry Willas, I’m to be the lady of Highgarden, please…

It’s funny, it’s almost as if the thought of his looks don’t enter into it all. It’s almost as if she’s horrified at being tied to the Lannister family, who is going to try to use her to usurp her claim…(additionally, when Cersei first refers to Tyrion in this conversation, she merely calls him a “gargoyle,” which Sansa interprets as Cersei referring to WILLAS)

She also thinks:

It had been the Imp who saved her from a beating that day, the same man who was waiting for her now. He is not so bad as the rest of them, she told herself. “I’ll go.”

WOW IT’S ALMOST AS IF SHE’S NOT EVEN THINKING OF HIS LOOKS????

The first time she thinks of his NOT being handsome, is when she sees him face to face. And the only thing she thinks is:

Tyrion wore a doublet of black velvet covered with golden scrollwork, thigh-high boots that added three inches to his height, a chain of rubies and lions’ heads. But the gash across his face was raw and red, and his nose was a hideous scab. […]

Should I tell him he is handsome? He’ll think me a fool or a liar. She lowered her gaze and held her tongue.

So, yes. She correctly notes that Tyrion is not handsome. His facial wound is hideous to look at - which is an objective fact. That doesn’t make her shallow.

And then:

“You did not ask for this marriage, I know. No more than I did. If I had refused you, however, they would have wed you to my cousin Lancel. Perhaps you would prefer that. He is nearer your age, and fairer to look upon. If that is your wish, say so and I will end this farce.”

I don’t want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas, I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge, and sons named Eddard and Bran and Rickon. But then she remembered what Dontos had told her in the godswood. Tyrell or Lannister, it makes no matter, it’s not me they want, only my claim. “You are kind, my lord,” she said, defeated. “I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands.”

He studied her with his mismatched eyes. “I know I am not the sort of husband young girls dream of, Sansa,” he said softly, “but neither am I Joffrey.”

“No,” she said. “You were kind to me. I remember.”

During the wedding she is “mortified” that Tyrion wants her to kneel for the placing of the bridal cloak, yes. She’s embarrassed, because it’s not the way she envisioned her wedding being. But then moments later she is “ashamed of her stubbornness” and kneels to kiss him.

Wow, gee, it’s almost like she recognizes that his being a dwarf isn’t that important in the scheme of things…

She does think he is ugly. But again, when offered a handsomer husband, she remembered that Tyrion had been kind to her. His kindness was more important to her than any physical deformity.

During the wedding feast she does her best to make the situation happy. She asks Tyrion to dance, and he rebuffs her. (wow what a bitch I know)

All throughout the bedding scene, Sansa is terrified. No matter who her husband was, she would have been TERRIFIED. Because she was about to be RAPED by a man she could not consent to marry, kindness notwithstanding.

It’s not until AFTER he says that he won’t consummate the marriage that she thinks about his lack of beauty.

Look at him, Sansa told herself, look at your husband, all of him. Septa Mordane said all men are beautiful, find his beauty, try.

Does Sansa find it? No. She finds nothing in his physical person beautiful. Is part of this likely due to his dwarfism? Yes. But Tyrion’s physical appearance had nothing to do with Sansa’s objecting to marry him. That had everything to do with his being a Lannister, and her being forever tied to a family that had and would continue to abuse her. The family that killed her father.

Had Tyrion been a Tyrell, yes - she would have been disappointed in his looks. But I am positive that she would have been much happier to marry him had doing so meant that she could escape the Lannisters.

2. As for GRRM writing the episode….bullshit.

We can complain all we want, regardless of the author of the content. And we don’t know that GRRM wrote that scene. He has said before that scenes he didn’t write (like the Bronn/Sandor scene in Blackwater) have been inserted into his episodes. And we know that scenes from this episode were shuffled with scenes from another. The initial title for this episode was “Autumn Rains,” but after the scene-shuffling occurred, they re-titled it to be more appropriate.

So we absolutely do not know that GRRM wrote this scene. And even if he did, we can be upset that it seems to contradict or vastly over-simplify what was present in the books. That’s our right as viewers and readers.

If you don’t like seeing the complaining - block those who do it. Simple answer to a simple problem.

flawedxdesign: I cannot believe this fandom right now. How the hell is this even up for debate? I...

Thu, 16 May 2013 16:25:06 -0700

flawedxdesign:

I cannot believe this fandom right now. How the hell is this even up for debate? I am sorry, but I am harshly judging anyone who dares say Theon wasn’t raped. Just because his body reacted UNVOLUNTARILY to a girl grinding on him does NOT mean he gave consent. Rewatch that scene if you see it as anything else but rape. He is TERRIFIED. It doesn’t matter if he was attracted to the women; it doesn’t matter if he had an erection; it doesn’t matter if he didnt try to fight her off him. IT WAS RAPE.

secretlyatargaryen: onlyalittlelion: sweet-lady-justice: onlyalittlelion: sweet-lady-justice: Fr...

Thu, 16 May 2013 15:29:02 -0700

secretlyatargaryen:

onlyalittlelion:

sweet-lady-justice:

onlyalittlelion:

sweet-lady-justice:

Friendly reminder that in A Storm of Swords, on their wedding night, while Tyrion was naked and aroused and Sansa was naked and terrified, she recalled her Septa’s words that “all men are beautiful in their own way” and tried to find the beauty in Tyrion.

Okay I love Sansa and you guys know I ship Sansa/Tyrion but

“Septa Mordane said all men are beautiful, find his beauty, try. She stared at the stunted legs, the swollen brutish brow, the green eye and the black one, the raw stump of his nose and crooked pink scar, the coarse tangle of black and gold hair that passed for his beard. Even his manhood was ugly, thick and veined, with a bulbous purple head. This is not right, this is not fair, how have I sinned that the gods would do this to me, how?”

“When the dwarf grimaced, his scar tightened and twisted … Deprived of passing scenery, she chose to stare at her folded hands, uncomfortably aware of her husband’s mismatched eyes … . Tyrion rubbed his scarred, scabby nose yet again, an ugly habit that drew the eye to his ugly face.”

friendly reminder that Sansa finding Tyrion unattractive is completely canonical

I wasn’t saying that it wasn’t canonical that she finds him unattractive. My point was that Sansa approaches it with more depth than “but he’s a dwarf”. (also apologies for not quoting it correctly)

Sorry I misread. It’s just that this keeps coming around my dash along with people saying “Sansa didn’t even care Tyrion was a dwarf!!!1!” which is simply not the case.

As Cat just pointed out, Sansa’s part of an ableist society and I don’t hold her thoughts against her since she has the grace to keep them to herself. (I also don’t mind her confiding them to Margaery, since that’s the only way we’re going to get her anxieties across on the show.)

The thing that bothers me when people say that Tyrion’s dwarfism has nothing to do with Sansa’s feelings towards him is that it’s usually accompanied by an erasure of Tyrion’s feelings about his disability and the way other people view him because of it.

I understand that this is a reaction to dudebros using Sansa not being attracted to Tyrion as a stick to beat her with, and I don’t think Sansa is shallow, as she is so often called (nor should she, for that matter, be required to be attracted to someone she’s being forced to marry), and she does try, but she’s also physically repulsed by him and Tyrion is aware of this, because it’s something he’s had to deal with his whole life, not just from women he’s attracted to but from everyone who thinks he’s less human because of his dwarfism. I love Sansa and I do think she gets some gross misogynistic hate but the “Tyrion blames everything on his dwarfism as an excuse” argument is equally gross.

I’m not saying Sansa is at fault here, she is young, and like others have said, a product of her society. And I do think she’s much less ableist than a lot of people in the books. How many people in Sansa’s situation would even try to look at Tyrion as a human being? She does try, and she feels empathy for him. So yeah, she does approach it with a lot more depth than just “he’s a dwarf”, but that wasn’t her only reason on the show for not wanting to be married him, and definitely not her first, but it is there and I’m glad they acknowledged it.

khaleesiboadicea: fadingroots: cypresssunn: time to talk about daenerys and why she’s fucking up...

Thu, 16 May 2013 14:32:06 -0700

khaleesiboadicea:

fadingroots:

cypresssunn:

time to talk about daenerys and why she’s fucking up again.

the fun part about the etymology of westeros and essos is that no one can deny that they are being likened and structured after the real western and eastern worlds. the essosi societies are representative of eastern socities. and westeros, including daenerys targaryen, are stand ins for the western world. because of this, the two continents are coded for a multitude of western and eastern societies, as well as their independent and intertwined histories.

in the real life western world, eastern people are perceived as stagnant and backward. they are regarded as undeveloped economically, technologically, and most importantly moralistically. and at the same time, the west has always perceived itself has been that of modernized, morally dynamic, evolving. since it hardly ever lends this kind of consideration to the ‘others’ in the east, it positions itself on a pedestal from which it can dictate the goings-on in the world.

and so, white and western societies hold the idea that brown societies are incapable of change without outside, corrective influences. this has been used to excuse and validate colonialism and imperialism for centuries.

these real world crimes are relfected in the game of thrones canon. the essosi societies are coded as being backward. they are being coded as monstrous and without any other characteristic aside from slaveholding. and this is how daenerys excuses her own violent imperialism.

now let’s have a canon history lesson! the continent of westeros used to have slaves. but it was not it a hostile outside force that came in an eradicated the evils of slavery. these societies were not burned to the ground depending on their willingness to bend to an outsiders command. none of these countries were callously set back years and years in development because someone decided they had not advanced enough.

no, what got rid of slavery in westeros was the moral progression of it’s peoples, and the eventual criminalization of the institution. and what will get rid of slavery in the free cities will be similar societal progression. because believe it or not, all societies are capable of progression.

but of course, treating brown people and brown societies like multifaceted and complexly developing isn’t at all interesting. not when we can all cheer and coo over an empowered and entitled white woman exerting her power of all of these brown ‘others’.

all of this is great and fantastic and accurate

but wow am i the only one who always saw Essos as being much more advanced than Westeros? I mean the whole slaves thing isn’t cool, but

All the best trade goods come from Essos, all the finest foods and wines and silks and steel. Essos is dotted with magnificent, wealthy, powerful citystates; Westeros has three or four cities, a few more squalid towns, and a bunch of ancient, largely crumbling, forts. Essos is home of the arts, of culture, of learning; Westeros is too busy killing themselves every few decades, living in squalor, and at the end of the day, the feudal system honestly reduces the peasants/serfs to little more than slaves. Just because they aren’t chattel slaves, aren’t property, doesn’t keep local lords from having almost total control over their lives, and subjecting them to violence when they fail to comply.

I spent a while the other night explaining to a friend how fucked up the orientalism and exotification in ASoIaF and GoT, i’m not trying to deny any of that by any means

i just always read westeros as backwards and poor, and essos as more advanced and more wealthy? is that just me?

In the history of Westeros in general, every single family who has ever conquered Westeros came from Essos, The First Men, the Andals, the Targaryens…and arguably the most advanced cultures out of these, the Rhoynar.

In book canon, Essosi see themselves as more advanced. I guess, to them, the least advanced cultures up and left Essos to find land in Westeros? There are cultures in Essos that are thought of as backwards and savage, like the Dothraki, but Essosi also think Westerosi are backwards too. Daenerys routinely gets dismissed by the slavers in Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen as a savage.

In show canon, Talisa, who is from Volantis, also expressed that Volantenes think Westerosi men are dirty barbarians etc.

What got rid of slavery in Westeros wasn’t the moral progression of it’s people. Slavery was eradicated in Westeros because of the Andals who brought the religion, The Faith of the Seven, with them when they invaded Westeros. They conquered the land and that religion eventually became very common. In the Faith of the Seven, slavery’s forbidden. So in reality, the reason why slavery’s forbidden in Westeros is because it’s against the religion of a colonial power that took control of Westeros for thousands of years; it was actually a hostile force that came in and eradicated the evils of slavery.

There’s still some form of slavery in the Iron Islands and Westerosi still benefit from slavery (because of trade with these places) even though it’s legally outlawed in the land.

j2annon: On why the Theon/Ramsay scene from the last episode actually really really worked for...

Thu, 16 May 2013 13:45:00 -0700

j2annon:

On why the Theon/Ramsay scene from the last episode actually really really worked for me

spoilers and triggery things under the cut obvs

What really struck me about it is how we get to see reek’s conditioning set in. He’s already learning not only to not do something that will displease Ramsay because he might catch him—no, Theon’s at the point already where he’s not even questioning that he will be caught. But what’s so incredible and devastating about this scene is that here he’s actually starting to fear even being caught just THINKING about something that will make Ramsay angry, or even just wanting it.

And worse than that, it’s things that Theon’s body naturally wants. As we’ve seen, sex is something that Theon’s body obviously enjoys (in different circumstances of course), and that he’s never really denied himself before. Yet here he is not wanting it, begging for them to stop it. But if you listen closely to his actual protests, they are not centered on what is being done to his own body, but rather, that Ramsay will find out what is being done to Theon’s body. And we already see glimpses that Theon knows that what will really get him in trouble is allowing his body to act on a desire, no matter how valid and natural that desire is.

This right here is laying the groundwork for him not allowing himself to want to leave Ramsay. Because even just the desire itself is a sin in his new world as Ramsay’s slave.

And this is how he will eventually learn to instinctively and violently refuse – even in his own mind—to remember that he is anything but Reek, Ramsay’s pet thing. Because it’s dangerous to want such things. I just think that the way they are setting this up, and the way they are weaving the physical torture into the psychological torture makes such perfect sense. For Theon’s, Reek’s, and Ramsay’s characters.

Brienne the Beauty ...

Thu, 16 May 2013 13:42:00 -0700

balladedutempsjadis:

Man, I talk about Jaime so much (and he is my favorite character in these books. Or any books at this point!) but Brienne isn’t far behind in my love for her and looking at all these pictures of her in the bear pit is reminding me of that fact.

So here is why I love Brienne: Who among us hasn’t been made to feel ashamed of SOMETHING about ourselves: our intelligence, our weight, our sexuality, our poverty, our education, our families, our skin color, SOMETHING? Brienne’s been made to feel ashamed of who she is HER ENTIRE LIFE because of things she absolutely can’t control, like her height and her looks. “All my life,” she tells Jaime, “men like you have sneered at me …” and that’s really true. I don’t know if they will include in the show the cruel wager that the knights in Renly’s camp made about Brienne’s virginity, but that was certainly just the worst of what she’s endured.

Brienne’s unrelenting experiences of misogyny and ostracism haven’t made her less compassionate - she’s still out helping orphans (LITERALLY!) and taking homeless squires under her wing and generally being awesome. Jaime compares her in his thoughts to Tyrion, because they are both physically so outside the norm, but unlike Tyrion, Brienne doesn’t waste time feeling sorry for herself. (Let me say that I loooove Tyrion, but he does spend a lot of his POV chapters being all “wah wah, no one will ever love me, wah wah the people are not grateful to me after I saved King’s Landing” etc. I can’t think of a time when Brienne is like THIS, though she certainly sometimes thinks that she’s not capable of completing her mission.)

Brienne manages to be both an idealist and a pragmatist: Unlike Ned Stark, perhaps the second-most honorable person in Westeros, Brienne doesn’t blind herself to the realities of the world, seeing it the way she WANTS it to be, rather than the way it is (not wanting to “darken” Robert’s last hours by doing the dirty work of arresting Cersei and her kids? REALLY NED?) But also, unlike Jaime, who armored himself in cynicism when he learned that the world didn’t match his high ideals, Brienne lives by her code even if no one else in the world will. It’s not that Brienne doesn’t see how honor is a mug’s game in Westeros, the game that will get you killed more likely than not; it’s that SHE DOESN’T CARE. She is who she is, gallant and brave and honorable, and she’ll keep flying that flag until the moment she dies.

Jaime gave her an opening to ask him to save her, to ask him to stay with her, and she didn’t take it, because her promise was more important to her than whatever horrid thing Locke had in store for her, that they both knew was coming. It was MORE IMPORTANT that Jaime help her keep her vow than that he save her life, and after he swore to her, she took this moment to give him something in return, the promise that she believed him. Like, seriously, let’s think about this, her only ally is leaving and he tells her she can ask him FOR ANYTHING and what she wants is nothing for herself. How amazing is that! (See how Jaime has tears in his eyes at this point? He cannot actually believe that someone so good and honorable exists - and his face when Qyburn tells him that this good, honorable person will be destroyed for an evening’s entertainment for evil, cruel men is complete devastation!)

And then, the bear pit, my god, she’s amazing. I would be sitting in a corner cowering in fear, and she … isn’t. She knows she’s going to die, and she’s going to go down swinging no matter what, and I just … :LSFJ:SFKJLFJLKS:L

Whenever I get annoyed with GRRM for endless descriptions of food and genealogy, I take a moment to remember that he created this flawless individual and made her so real and so lovable and so heartbreaking and I forgive him every eight-course meal and even the fat pink masts.

Brienne of Tarth, Knight Errant - Jaime loves her and so should you!

The Badassness of House Martell

Thu, 16 May 2013 13:35:59 -0700

lowgardenarchive:

Spoilers for all the books

Elia, Oberyn, Arianne, Doran, dem Sand Snakes, Quentyn. Every member of House Martell can be considered a badass on some level. Quentyn, for all his haplessness, still went toe-to-toe with two dragons. The Sand Snakes are the Sand Snakes - Obara, Nymeria, Tyene, Sarella, Elia, Obella, Dorea, and Loreza - and they know how to mess people up. Doran is a master manipulator pretending to be a tired old man. Arianne is clever, conniving, courteous, and charming. Oberyn is Oberyn. And then Elia, who, despite her lack of physical appearances, is mentioned to have fought like a tigress against Gregor Clegane.

Oberyn Martell was a jerk. He was rude and insulting and generally acted like a troll to almost everyone, and that’s not even going into how he treated some of his baby mamas. But I still liked him, because it is possible to appreciate characters who are jerks - I love to hate Kathryn Merteuil from Cruel Intentions, and Atia from Rome, and Rorschach from Watchmen, and Rumpelstiltskin from Once Upon A Time, because these are people with sharp tongues who do bad things but acknowledge it. They know that they are manipulative psychos and they use that to their advantage shamelessly. Oberyn is the same. He never pretends to be a paragon of virtue and kindness. He is Oberyn “yolo” Martell, and he will have (at the very least) eight babies out of wedlock and be proud of it.

Arianne is one of the prime examples of Westeros women using what they have to get what they want. She’s hot and she’s smart, and she isn’t afraid to put all of that to good use. Just look at Arys Oakheart. He took his Kingsguard vows much more seriously than most, yet he still fell for her. That was just the only way she could have gotten him on her side. Arianne can read people - just look her talking Cedra ‘round. Arys wasn’t going to break his vows unless he was in love, so she made him fall in love. That is Arianne Martell getting stuff done.

But she isn’t heartless, and that aspect is a huge part of her character for me. After Arys dies, she feels genuine guilt and actually dwells on it for quite some time while she is in the tower. In ASOIAF, so few game players feel any sort of empathy that it was incredibly refreshing (not to mention relieving) to see someone who actually retains her humanity, even in the face of all these manipulations and power plays.

Quentyn. Oh, Quentyn. I’ll be honest, he’s probably my least favorite Martell. Not to say that I don’t like him - I just didn’t care as much about him as I did the others. Maybe it’s because of the onslaught of new POV characters in ADWD, or maybe because he was just… so normal. Normal, nice characters can be fun - like Vorenus in season one of Rome - if I can see them being put into badass situations and showing that, while they may be polite on the outside, they can still be tough and take some names. Quentyn’s quest was doomed from the start, so it was really just a matter of waiting for him to die, something that I was not surprised happened. I felt bad for him and wished he’d had a cleaner death, but I didn’t dwell on it.

Still. He may have been dumb checking out those dragons, but it took some guts.

The Sand Snakes are badass. You’ve got Obara, who owns things with her spear and warriorness. Nymeria, who can hide a dozen daggers on her person. Tyene, who seems sweet and innocent on the outside but will poison you and your family and your dog and your sensei if you screw with her. Sarella, who is totally Alleras and will totally become a lady maester. Elia and Obella, who were sent to the Water Gardens and became a terror of the pools. Dorea, who also goes to the Water Gardens, where she knocks oranges off trees with her morningstar (Dorea is eight, by the way). And Loreza, who is six and will likely grow up to be just as badass as her sisters if she isn’t already.

Doran is the epitome of Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass. He looks like he’s just some gouty old man who will forgive every slight, when really, he’s one of the smartest players out there because he is patient. So many terrible things that happen in Westeros and Essos could have been avoided if people had just been patient. If Viserys had waited for his crown. If Catelyn had thought things over before kidnapping Tyrion. If Dany had reconsidered Meereen. If Joff had let people talk to him about Ned before lopping his head off. Doran does think things over, hedoes wait, he does check himself before he wrecks himself. He is lying in the grass, and pretty soon, a lot of people are going to be feeling the burn of his fangs. Because revenge is a dish best served cold. White Walker cold.

Elia Martell. Guys, Elia Martell. All we know at first glance is that her husband jilted her and then she died horrifically. That’s putting any sort of speculations or headcanons aside. By the end of the first book, those two things are all we know about her. Gradually, little details begin to trickle in. She had a sharp wit, she was a good and gracious lady, she fought The Mountain like a tigress. She birthed one baby that nearly killed her and then birthed another one, and was just like, “Will you make a song for him?” while Rhaegar did his harp thing. Elia of Dorne has never been spoken of badly by anyone save for Cersei, who refers to her as some flat-chested chick with black eyes (Just going out on a limb here, but I think Cerseimight have been bitter). Elia was Elia, whose death has resounded in Westeros for over a decade. And I want more Elia.

tl;dr: I rant about the Martells and it’s really, really, ridiculously long.

secretlyatargaryen: As much as I love Tyrion, I dislike the way the show keeps suggesting that he...

Thu, 16 May 2013 12:39:18 -0700

secretlyatargaryen:

As much as I love Tyrion, I dislike the way the show keeps suggesting that he must be this amazing lover because he sleeps with prostitutes. Not that I don’t think Tyrion is great at sexing, but there’s a difference between paying a prostitute to sleep with you, and making love, and Tyrion’s experience with consensual relationships is pretty limited. Sleeping with lots of prostitutes wouldn’t by default make you great at pleasing women because you’re paying them to please you. It’s not just experience, it’s the right kind of experience, that makes you a good lover.

Although I do get the impression from the books that Tyrion does enjoy pleasing women, even women he’s paying, because he likes to indulge in the illusion of romance, and he seems to enjoy pleasing Shae. But the idea that the show is putting forward that having lots of sex with prostitutes automatically makes you a great sex partner seems like a male fantasy, similar to Pod’s magical virgin dick.

It also seems to be a side effect of the way the show hypersexualizes Tyrion, in a way that feels like it’s a joke at Tyrion’s expense because of his dwarfism. Can you imagine the show making the same deal out of this with Jaime, for instance?

Although I have no problem believing that Margaery wants it.

thewaroffivequeens: warri0rqueens: thewaroffivequeens: warri0rqueens: fictionaladyfeels: dontnee...

Thu, 16 May 2013 11:42:49 -0700

thewaroffivequeens:

warri0rqueens:

thewaroffivequeens:

warri0rqueens:

fictionaladyfeels:

dontneedyourheroact:

fictionaladyfeels:

You know what I really love about Dany?

Despite her birth, her childhood was exceedingly underprivileged. She knew hunger, and cold, and how to sleep in the streets with only her brother’s body next to her to keep her warm. She’s seen the abuses others suffer, has suffered many of them herself. She lived most of her childhood running from city to city in fear of her life.

And she gets that. She recognizes that no one’s going to bat an eyelash at the stranger starving in the gutter. She realizes that nothing in life is free. Easy breaks are as rare as rain in the desert.

It’s bred into her a unique sort of humility that’s rare in the other key players of her station. She can take care of herself when she has to because she knows she can’t expect complete strangers to do it for her. And more, she’s willing to take care of the decent people around her because she knows what it’s like to be alone and have nothing.

#LOLS AT ANYONE WHO THINKS SHE HAS WHITE SAVIOR COMPLEX #DANY WAS TREATED LIKE SHIT HER ENTIRE 14 YEARS OF LIFE #SOLD AS A SLAVE #ABUSED BY HER BROTHER #DIRT POOR AND HOMELESS #SHE KNOWS WHATS UP #THATS WHY SHES GOING AROUND FREEING SLAVES #SHE KNOWS WHAT ITS LIKE #TO BE OWNED #SHES A CHILD FORCED TO GROW UP AND SHES TRYING THE BEST SHE CAN

except she does have a white savior complex

can we not ignore how one of her major flaws is to act like a moral guardian

she frees all the slaves in astapor and yunkai and then just marches on without much thought about what would happen in those cities afterward

she “rescues” mirri maz duur from assault and then gets outraged when mirri turns around and betrays her by killing her son and child

and after mirri’s death she continues to vilify mirri without even acknowledging the precise reason mirri needed saving in the first place

dany is an amazing character. she is tough, and strong, and one of the few genuinely moral people to occupy a position of power in grrm’s world. but she is also very flawed and very human, and her actions are at times short-sighted because she’s young, privileged, and inexperienced.

that doesn’t make her an awful person, it means she has some growing up to do.

except I don’t believe that gives Dany any kind of ‘complex’. It just means that, like you said, she is still inexperienced and has some growing up to do.

Because the text of ASOIAF does not exist in a vacuum.

At the meta-level, the world in the story is a representation of our own world, and Dany thus is a representation of white imperialism. White imperialism continues to fuel thoughts of superiority of self and inferiority of other (non-white) races in the real world, and this is reflected in Dany’s character in several ways:

As the subject of one of a handful of the most important prophecies in the series, Daenerys is well-described as one of the primary main characters.

The majority of characters in ASOIAF are white. Of those that are non-white, only two reach the status of POV character. Even then, their roles in the narrative at large indicate them as supporting protagonists rather than lead protagonists in their own right.

We get no insight into the cultures Dany is conquering and freeing. None whatsoever. She continually refuses to come to an understanding of Ghiscari culture; her observance of Dothraki culture is littered with racist indicator words.

Dany repeatedly places herself in the role of moral guardian over these “lesser” people (she outright thinks of them as her children, and dependent upon her). She takes actions she believes to be in their best interests based on her own privileged upbringing, and does not consult them on what they want.

Dany’s own internal narrative has reflected a growing unhealthy degree of emotional and psychological dependency upon her role as mother to her people.

All of this combined is why many critics of Dany (many of whom are fans of her, I would like to stress) say she has a white savior complex. While the race construction in ASOIAF is not exact to our real world concept of the same, it is heavily based upon it, which is why we use these terms.

So Dany should have gone up to the slaves and asked if they wanted to be free? Because obviously all of them would have said no, right? I agree it was a mistake not getting to know more about the culture but I personally don’t think that that means at all that Dany thinks she’s superior to them. Also, some of the people actually call her mother.

Okay, I read your tags and—you do realize I am a Dany fan, right? Massive. Huge. She’s tied for my favorite character with Sansa and I am screaming and crying and pleading for her to survive and be happy and I want her on the Iron Throne and everything.

HOWEVER.

I also feel compelled to subject her character to extremely critical analysis because she is hugely flawed and behaves in very flawed and problematic ways. WHICH IS GREAT. What’s not so great is that the narrative’s main weakness is that its blinding whiteness doesn’t really do much to counteract Dany’s role as the archetypal messianic white savior. And that makes me sad. It also makes me sad when people try to pain her just as badass all-loving warrior queen mother whose flaws should just be forgiven and waved away because…I love that she has those flaws. They make her human. Good people are racist too.

SO. BACK TO THE SLAVE BUSINESS.

Should Dany have just marched on by and ignored the plight of the slaves in Ghiscar? Maybe, maybe not. Her intentions to help them are quite pure, but intent is not magic.

There’s been a great deal of other meta that’s gone into how Dany should have approached the Slaver’s Bay Issue better than she did. She should have studied the area first. She should have learned how the society is dependent upon slavery, and why, and how do you meet labor needs if you suddenly free everyone. She should have had plans in place to re-integrate slaves into society, to re-educate the slaveholding classes of Slaver’s Bay on human rights, to ensure the crisis during transition would not be too great for the social structure to bear. Instead the result we got was butcher-kings in Astapor, famine in Meereen, people all over the bay selling themselves into/back into slavery just for a meal ticket, murder in the streets, the bloody flux, absolute economic chaos, etc.

The thing about these books is that they’re meant as a critique as much as they’re meant as entertainment. GRRM doesn’t give us knights to squee and fangirl over; he gives us knights to pity and empathize with and to display how properly fucked-up the social order of knighthood is. He doesn’t give us a war of kings and queens and political intrigue only to keep us rooted in our seats, but also to explore a theme of how horrifically fucked-up feudal societies were.

All of his characters bear severe emotional scars and psychological duress. All of them. That is extremely deliberate, and Dany is no different. By the end of A Dance With Dragons she is showing signs of the onset of severe clinical depression, if she wasn’t showing them already. And she acts superior to other people because that is the way she has been taught. Yes, she is extremely empathetic, to an almost shocking degree given the trappings of her birth. Yes, she’s very forgiving, very generous, very kind to those she cares for. But she also vilifies the woman who killed her husband and child to save her own people and untold scores of others, and she thinks of cultures other than her own as exotic, barbaric, or worse.

Meta Monday: Literacy

Thu, 16 May 2013 10:46:18 -0700

justadram:

“Davos flattened down the little square of crinkled parchment and squinted at the tiny crabbed letters. Reading was hard on the eyes, that much he had learned early. Sometimes he wondered if the Citadel offered a champion’s purse to the maester who wrote the smallest hand.”—Davos Seaworth

Today’s topic is literacy. Davos is a lowborn man raised up by Stannis Baratheon. His previous station in life explains his illiteracy. Otherwise, his inability to read would be unusual in Westeros, a world where the highborn—both lords and ladies—are all seemingly functionally literate. Who beyond the highborn are literate in Westeros? Were literacy rates similar in medieval Europe and was literacy similarly distributed amongst the social classes?

The highborn sons of Westeros are taught by maesters, highborn daughters by septas like Maester Luwin and Septa Mordane, who serve House Stark. The education the children receive from these individuals includes learning how to read. While some of those children might be less proficient than others—Game of Thrones intimates that Jaime had difficulties learning because of dyslexia—or more interest in reading than others—Tyrion Lannister, Samwell Tarley, and Rodrick Harlaw are all mocked for being eager readers—they’re all taught their letters by a maester or a septa.

Maesters are scholars, scientists, healers, and advisors of the nobility, in addition to the tutors of their children. They train at the Citadel, an institution somewhat akin to a medieval university, and one can only presume that the ability to read is the most basic requirement at the outset. Serving as advisors to the nobility of Westeros, the maesters provide the same services that churchmen in medieval Europe provided. Beginning in the early medieval period, noble houses were full of knights to serve and protect and clerics to serve as advisors and notaries. Therefore, if Westeros was more like medieval Europe, it would be septons serving in the noble homes as advisors, not maesters.

Becoming a maester is not open to women. While that wouldn’t preclude ~~Sarella Sand~~ a woman dressed as a man from obtaining training, the educated women of Westeros are septas—the female clergy of the Faith. While we know precious little about convents or motherhouses in which the septas live, presumably they receive an education in letters, much like the education medieval nuns received in their convents, which enables them to serve as governesses. However, the clerics who served in the noble houses of Europe had no female equivalents, as nuns were cloistered.

Indeed, there would have been no need for a medieval lady to be taught how to read and write. Her duties did not require literacy and since the Bible was not read by laypeople, there was no reason for a woman to acquire the skill. Moreover, there was also little reason for a lord to learn how to write. His duties did not hinge so much on literacy as providing protection and justice for those beneath him. So, while we find that even men as crude as Sandor Clegane receive an education in Westeros from a maester, this was not the case in medieval Europe. The reason clerics could be found in noble houses was precisely because the lord and his knights could not read, and therefore, all bureaucratic tasks had to be farmed out to the one group in society taught how to read: members of the Church.

This is quite a shift from what we would have found in the Roman Empire, where well placed men were highly literate. With the fall of Rome, so too went an emphasis on education, because power no longer meant becoming a civil servant. In the chaos of the early medieval period, important men needed to be warriors, who could support their lords with arms, not with speeches, politicking, or letters. The Church was left as the sole bastion of learning, since the ability to read the Bible and Church Fathers and perform the Mass in Latin remained vital.

It is a hotly debated point amongst medievalists as to when, why, and to what extent, but during the high medieval period, literacy began to spread beyond the institution of the Church. The reasons are complex, but relate to an economy changing from local and subsistence to commerce occurring over long distances and better linked in with the east. In order to conduct business on a larger scale, some ability to keep books is necessary; therefore, it seems that merchants were some of the first functionally literate laymen. A more active economy also requires bankers and notaries and lawyers, and so we might add a whole new host of laymen to the literate folks in medieval Europe by 1200. Of course, we’d find that literacy rates were much higher in larger towns and cities, since that is where business was conducted, while the countryside—rich and poor alike—remained largely illiterate.

We see evidence of this increased lay literacy not only in a proliferation of documents, many of which are legal in character, but also in the formation of lay convents, where women gathered to study the scriptures and lead a holy life, and popular heretical movements, such as Waldensianism, which pressed for the Gospels to be translated into the vernacular. These movements are notable, since previously, a local tradesman or his daughter would have had no use for the Bible translated into his regional dialect, because they couldn’t have read it whether it was in Latin or Provençal.

At this point, the developing middle class was quite often more literate than their betters, the nobles, who still relied on either clerics or lay notaries to conduct business for them. However, by 1100 kings would have been expected to be able to read and by the late medieval period, noblemen and some noblewomen would have been literate. Something like ¼ of the men in Europe could read by 1500, up from perhaps 1% of the total population.

If high medieval Europe saw the advent of the literate layman, is Westeros similar in the distribution of readers beyond its notable literate group? Maesters seem to be rather well placed in Westerosi society. Lords might send their younger sons and their bastards to train to become maesters. Maester Aemon and Samwell Tarley are examples of the highborn intended for service. But as maesters and septas are not exclusively drawn from the upper classes, we know that some lower born men and women receive an education in letters. We also know that some of the stewards on the Wall are literate—though none so well read as Samwell—since the administration of the Night’s Watch is in their hands. But most of the smallfolk like Shae, Gendry, and Hot Pie, can’t read.

What about the Westerosi middle class? There is internal long distance trade in Westeros—in wine if in nothing else—and trade with the Free Cities, so while we are not so familiar with the merchants of Westeros, one might presume that they too possess the ability to keep books and read. Nevertheless, when one needs money in Westeros, it seems as if one deals with wealthy families, such as the Lannisters, or goes outside of Westeros to the Iron Bank of Braavos, indicating that banking is not much developed in Westeros. Similarly, a document based justicesystem is not well developed in Westeros, so one doesn’t encounter lawyers or notaries. It might be the case that Westeros has a less developed economy and a smaller middle class than high or late medieval Europe, resulting in less literate people overall.

They do have the edge on the educated nobleman and noblewoman, for all the good it does them. (Spoilers: most of them are rotten at ruling.) But if the noble sons and daughters of early and high medieval Europe were not universally educated in letters, what were they educated in? That is a topic for another day.

Meta Monday: Travel

Thu, 16 May 2013 09:49:53 -0700

justadram:

“How do we get up there? I’ve no experience at riding goats.”

“Mules,” Brynden said, smiling.

Today’s topic is travel. In a series that takes us from Dorne to beyond the Wall, we see a great deal of travel in Westeros. From foot to hoof, the characters travel wide and far, encountering danger with great regularity. What drove travel in the Middle Ages was a combination of commerce, religion, and politics, and the variety in modes of travel and the dangers faced were much the same as what we find in Westeros.

Walking was the regular mode of transport in the Middle Ages for the vast majority. Foot travel was manageable over short distances and was affordable for the lower classes. We see this in Westeros: children, fugitives, smallfolk, and travelling brothers of the Faith, all are seen travelling by foot. Even travelling short distances would not have been without danger for much of the Middle Ages, however simple the mode of transport and poor the traveler, and therefore, guides or at least travel in numbers was necessary if one didn’t want to end up like Sandor, dying by the roadside, the victim of a bandit.

While not as common as travel by foot, river traffic in Europe was dense in the Middle Ages, and roads often followed rivers. With a boost in commerce, river traffic increased in the 13^th century, becoming a more widespread form of transportation. Many different kinds of water crafts could have been found in the streams and rivers, but many of them were very simple dinghies or rowboats—think Jaime and Brienne’s awesome river adventure. Nevertheless, this was a more troublesome and expensive form of transport than walking, and therefore, less common than hoofing it in your best walking sandals.

You could rely on mounted travel, of course. Travel by ass was always a good choice. We encounter mules at the Eyrie, Dunk and Egg use a mule as a pack animal, and Lord Beric Dondarrion claims that too many of his men ride “rounseys, drays, and mules.” It was not as luxurious as travel by horse, being more economical, but the ass was also more suited to mountainous terrain and needed less water than a horse. For medieval people, the ass was an especially appropriate steed for the spiritually minded, since it was associated Biblically with humility, although travel by foot would have been the most pious choice. Nevertheless, for a traveler weary of foot travel, a lift on an ass would have been a welcome respite.

The way to ride in style in the Middle Ages was on horseback. The horse in medieval Europe was not only a mode of transportation and a tool in combat, but a symbol of power and authority. The prestige associated with owning horses relates to the rise of mounted combat, which was popularized in the 8^th century due to the transmission of stirrup technology from China. Horse and rider could essentially become one giant weapon, once the knighted rider could stick his feet in the stirrups and stay onboard his charging steed. Foot soldiers became less valuable, the aristocracy became mounted warriors, and the horse became a symbol for their position—feudalism, a topic for another day.

As any child that has been thwarted in their desire for a pony knows, horses are expensive, particularly large warhorses, and they represented a sizable investment. To own one and travel by horseback meant you were a person of some means. In Westeros it is much the same. The horse is important to the culture and those who ride them are important too. A knight in Westeros is expected to own at least one horse. Sandor, for example, has Stranger. That horse is to be battle-ready at all times, meaning that for travel purposes, you might want more than one horse, which is an additional expense. In the North we find less knights, as the Faith is not as prominent there, but horses still serve much the same purpose there as they do elsewhere.

Just as in medieval Europe a warhorse would be different in breeding from one that pulled an iron plow, not all horses in Westeros are of the same quality. At the Wall and beyond, Garrons are employed. In Scotland and Ireland, the term garron is used to describe a hardy pony or undersized horse. They’re prized for their ability to work on slopes. GRRM uses this term to describe much the same thing: the Garrons are hardy and suitable in cold, mountainous areas, being able to go for longer without food and being surer of foot.

The Dornishmen are famous for breeding Dornish sand steeds. Oberyn Martell rides one such horse. This breed is highly valued. It is slim and swift. They have narrow, beautiful heads and are slightly smaller than an average warhorse, meaning they cannot bear the heavy armor a warhorse might wear. The Dornishmen claim these steeds can be ridden for two days and a night and never tire.

A hedge knight or squire might ride a rounsey—a perfectly useful steed, but of no particular breeding. Rounseys are useful as pack animals as well. So too are ponies, which might also be suitable mounts for children. A truly inferior horse is a stot. Podrick Payne rides a stot and so too does Reek. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with cheap.

The nobility ride destriers, coursers, and palfreys, but not all nobility choose mounted travel in Westeros. Cersei rides in litters and carriages and slows down the royal procession by riding in the close confines of the wheelhouse. While much of Westeros’ travel seems squarely in line with medieval history, the carriages and wheelhouse are more fantasy than fact. Litters were used in medieval Europe, particularly by noblewomen. The reason litters were preferred, was because medieval roads were so rough that they made carriages or coaches useless. Moreover, roads were uncertain with no well maintained interconnected system akin to the Kingsroad, so you might switch from a good road to a terrible one without warning, leaving you stuck in a rut.

Wheeled transport for humans was rare. A suspended carriage on chains and four wheels pulled by two or four horses can be attested to in the 14^th century, but was not widely used by the nobility until the 15^th century. Prior to the 14^th century, most wheeled ‘carriages’ were on two or three wheels like a pedicab, and since these were not suspended, it was a very bumpy, uncomfortable ride. A docile palfrey with a nice even gait would have been a much preferable ride for a noblewoman.

We shouldn’t give Cersei too hard a time for slowing down the procession. Whether by means of mount or the power of your own feet, travel was slow. A small mounted company might travel 30 miles in a day. King Richard II once managed 70 miles in one night, but those would be the very speediest sorts of examples of travel.

Despite the dangers and discomfort, medieval people regularly traveled long distances, especially in the high and late medieval period, when the economy improved and pilgrimages increased in importance as a form of spirituality. Men and women of all social classes set out and traveled not only the Continent but as far as the Holy Land often with nothing but their feet to carry them.

I don’t even like backpacking and hostels.

evieoneill: i…have a lot of really sad feelings about lysa tully tbh. obviously by the time we meet...

Thu, 16 May 2013 08:53:40 -0700

evieoneill:

i…have a lot of really sad feelings about lysa tully tbh.

obviously by the time we meet her in the text, lysa is not exactly a likable character. she’s clearly in the throes of mental illness, and she makes a lot of bad decisions because of this, but i just can’t bring myself to view her as a villain.

like i always see cersei and sansa discussed as victims of the patriarchy, and i feel like lysa should be included in these discussions, not to detract from either of them, but because of the parallels between them. a lot of otherwise reasonable fans are so quick to brand her as a crazy bitch, or make a complete mockery of her parenting, but she deserves more than that. really.

imagine for a second you’re young lysa tully, the middle child, constantly overshadowed by hoster’s favourite catelyn, who after their mother’s death slips so easily into her role as lady of riverrun, who is beautiful and graceful and courteous, who always knows the right thing to say or do, who brings nothing but joy to her father, and constantly overshadowed by edmure, his youngest, his only son, his heir. imagine you’re lysa, and you put your faith in songs and stories, not unlike sansa or brienne. imagine you’re lysa, and you view the world with starry eyes, dreaming of the day you will be a beautiful lady, a mother, happy and loved. imagine you’re lysa, such a delicate soul, quick to happiness and to sorrow, and all you want is to be noticed, appreciated, loved.

imagine you’re lysa, and you have the great misfortune of falling in love, just like in the songs, with littlefinger, who like your father, like everyone else, favours cat, beautiful, blushing cat, who seems to do everything better than you. imagine you’re lysa, and you watch littlefinger pursue your uninterested sister, all the while pining for him. imagine you’re lysa, and you lose your virginity to him, under dubious and drunken circumstances, no doubt, and he sighs your sister’s name, your sweet sister, and reminds you all over again that you’re not the one he wants.

imagine you’re lysa, and you’re pregnant, until your father gives you the perfect combination of abortifacients, and suddenly, you’re not. and you’re married off to old jon arryn, with your honour soiled, only good enough because of your perceived fertility, only wanted for your body, for your heirs. and even then you’re not good enough.

imagine you’re lysa, and you watch as year after year, your sister, your perfect sister, births healthy child after healthy child. as she and her husband grow closer, building their love, building their family. and every time you conceive, it ends in blood and grief. and as your sister shines, you can feel yourself fading, sinking into sorrow and loneliness.

and then imagine you’re lysa, and you finally carry a child to term, and you have a child, your only child, your only son. and he’s weak and fragile, but he’s alive, and he’s yours. he’s all the family you truly have in king’s landing, and you cling to him , because he’s all, he’s everything you have anymore.

i just don’t see how her story isn’t one of a girl who got royally fucked by the patriarchy, a girl who had her dreams soured and spoiled and ruined, a girl who wasn’t strong enough to stay sweet in the ruins. i can’t imagine knowing all this, and still laughing. idk. like none of this excuses the fact that lysa was definitely an overbearing parent to sweetrobin, and she lied and manipulated people, and then attacked sansa, but i don’t think she’s entirely unsympathetic either, at all. i see a lot of lovely defenses for characters that have done equally as questionable, if not worse shit, but lysa is kind of a universal joke, and it makes me really sad.

The Citadel Conspiracy

Thu, 16 May 2013 07:56:52 -0700

notsosilentsister:

I do think there’s a genuinely altruistic element to the Citadel-anti-dragon-agenda (based on the dragons=nuclear weapons analogy), misguided as it may be. People have made rather good arguments why the chosen approach might not be all that reasonable, considering that magic is a fact of this world and it’s rarely a good idea to blind yourselves to the facts. I read ASOIAF very much as a narrative about institutional failure, and the Citadel is certainly one example of it.

But I also think that the Citadel’s motives are not entirely pure.

A quote from a poster at Westeros.org

[Quote] BrosBeforeSnows, on 28 November 2011 - 08:48 PM, said:But, on the flip side, there is also an elitist/Darwinian aspect to it as well. Magic (theoretically) can empower the weak. Even a slave like Moqorro has access to it. It is much like firepower in today’s world. One small man with a gun has the ability to kill one large man with a sword. The Children of the Forest, for example, were able to combat the First Men and Andals, who were not only larger and stronger than they were, but also more technologically advanced, with magic. Destroying magic, therefore, would take power away from the “weak” and place it back into the hands of the “strong”, i.e. brawn over brain. Magic, in that sense, has the potential to subvert “survival of the fittest”. But why would the learned mæsters want to do that (brawn over brain)? Because they’re part of the club. They themselves are not “weak”, nor do they serve the “weak”. The mæsters serve the nobility, and the nobility wields power through physical strength and intimidation, therefore making the destruction of magic (i.e. a counter to physical strength and intimidation) in their interests. [/Quote]

I couldn’t say whether the maesters themselves are conscious of such ulterior motives, but conscious or not (it’s probably not how they rationalize their actions to each other), such considerations may well play their part in the plot. And I wonder how this may affect speculations about another institution often suspected of plotting against Dany and her dragons: the Faceless Men. Because, at least officially, the FM are all about empowering the weak. They are often seen as elitist and exclusive, because of the exorbitant prices for their services, but we should not forget that these prices are not always paid in money. The FM don’t discriminate based on wealth but on on despair. The Bravoosi may hate the Targs because of their historic role in slavery, but now Dany is using those dragons to free slaves. I think that should make a difference for the FM. But even if they maintain their anti-dragon stance, they would hardly support any agenda directed against magic in general (espcially since they themselves rely on it rather heavily). So even if the FM start out on the anti-targ side, finding out how the anti-dragon-campaign ties into the Citadel-anti-magic plot might well change things As to the endgame:

From a purely utilitarian perspective, I am not in favour of a dragon-based Targaryan restoration - Dany might make more or less good use of them, but who can guarantee for her descendants?

Yet I don’t think that the utter banishment of magic form this world is entirely feasible either.

I think that self-regulation of magic users (and mutual control of different factions of each other) is the way to go.

The COTF and their magic of the Old Gods is often perceived as the least problematic form of magic in Westeros. But there’s nothing inherently less destructive about it. Think of the hammer of the waters for instance, used to by the COTF to shatter the arm of Dorn and create the swamps in the Neck. Warging and skin-changing can be extremely morally problematic, as we’ve seen with Varamyr. But at least the wargs and skinchangers have pretty strong taboos in place against such abuses of this power. And COTF magic used to be enhanced by human sacrifice too. The practice might have been dropped over the centuries, but that also coincided with a significant loss of power for the COTF. It seems to me that COTF gave up a lot of their power voluntarily.

And the other magical parties in Westeros might have to follow their example.

The faceless men for instance also at least claim to follow a rather strict code as to the use of their powers. No killing for personal reasons, for instance. And they only take voluntary human sacrifices.

We don’t know about any internal regulations for Red Priests and dragon-breeding Targs, but they will have to be put in place, in order to allow for a sustainable balance of power. (No burning people alive to make the magic stronger; limiting the growth of dragons by keeping them chained and feeding them less). Dany has already shown a certain willingness to do that - of course she’ll probably abandon that approach due to her most recent epiphany in the next book, but she might return to it in times of peace.

The Red Priests will also need to curtail their power. That’s why I don’t think they can be the dominant religion by the end of the series (which is why I assume they’ll never officially acknowledge Jon as AA - because being potentially right about AA would make them to powerful)